Discourse between Councillors of State relating to the present state of Ireland
- Reference: MS 840, fols 018r-020v
- County:
- Date: 10/12/1641
- Type: Miscellaneous
- Nature of Deposition: Miscellaneous
- How to Cite
fol. 18r
(NB: Henry Jones’s marginal notations have been placed after the paragraph to which they refer)
No. 5
Heades of that discourse betweene 2 Councelors of State concerning the Present affaire of Ireland
1. That the Relations comming from the Councel board in Ireland concerning that Kingdom are different from what are given by some particular members thereof. <The relations are made by {
2. That the I.C. came into Ireland anno 1607, when and since, he observed both the Principall persons, and the Common people very desirous to live in Peace, and vnder Protection of the Lawes
<2. How inclinable they are {
And that the gover n ment did grow more licentious & absolute, by how much the People weare found more obedient & Patient hence that giving way to Projectors, Monopilers, and probing fellowes (the instruments and factors of some ministers of state) to vex the People with strange and vnknowne Lawes suits for Concealement, Intrusions, alienations: and Martial-Lawe with greate severity Executed; whereby they began to murmure & repine, yet it weare they resolved to beare any thing so they might enjoy theire Religion & lands.
<[
This I.C. saith that he doth therefore looke so farre back as the yeare 1607 thereby to observe by what degrees the People weare apted & Prepared for this revolt. <weare all the pretended greevances before or those after named graunted to be facts yet could not {
3. Some heades of greevances after the Setlement of that peace vizt
1. anno 1614. the Plantation in Leinster, the greatest of greevances. se af t er num 6 <quere>
2.Levying the Kings rents by Soldiers
Noe other way would serve that was to pay the soldiers.
<quere>
3. The Statut against Recusants very disorderly executed by fit t s and againe intermitted by Order from the Councell board.
<the clemency of the State for in remitting {
4.Sessing soldiers upon Supposed delinquents. <quere>
5. Vnreasonable Power given by Judges of Assize to English gentlemen to determine suits wherein the Native must suffer in a difference betweene him and an English or Scottish man. that the said Judges could act to transferre [
6. Silencing of all Irish lawyers for Recusancie, upon whose fidelity and Learning only the Natives could confide, English lawyers, then Practising, beeing for the most Part atturnies called to the Barre, and such as wanting Practise in Westminster weare admitted heere by theire dependence on greate men. That Necessity Enforced the Calling in Recusants, otherwise the Courtt had {
fol. 18v
4.Plantations {
{Leinster
5.The first Plantation by Q: Elizabeth was of six Countyes in Ulster excheated to the Crowne by the attainder of the 2 Earles of Tirone and Tireconnell with theire adherents: to which there was just title if that plantation had gonne no further then the Delinquents, but seeing it could not be but some in those six countys weare not with drawne into the Rebellion, why should the lands of those Inocent be da shutt up with the other.
<why should we give way to a proposition against an Act of Parliament finding grounded on former Inquisitions finding the said 6 intire Countys for the Crowne>
There might have beene remedy for this, had it not beene Provided that the Greate Office should be reserved as sacred, not to be questioned or traversed.
<Therefore noe reason that Office should be traversed>
6. Next followed the Plantation of Leinster (of which before number .3 for finding whereof
1.The Lo: deputy in person with part of the Army went into severall Counties to countenance the busines. <quere>
2.The Commissioners weare of the Privy Councel, or Ministers of State, who weare assured of a Part in the distribution. <quere who they weare>
3.Juries of such as would returne Verdicts for the King upon indifferent evidence.
<quere who they weare.>
4.The Kings title found upon some nice Point or moth-eaten record of a graunt past of those lands to Roger le Pigott (se if not Bigot) or some other in those times and for want of heires males reverting to the Crowne. <quare>
5.That the grants of the said lands made to the present possessors and theire Ancesstors from several Kings, weare rejected because the King was (forsoothe) deceived in his graunt, not beeing informed of his Title, notwithstanding the clause of excerta scientia etc: And that the first Patentees neuer weare possessed, nor ever Paid any rent to the Crowne out of those lands. <quare>
6. A fourth part only taken away, the other 3 parts of the lands given to the Natives: but by partiality in the divisions that 4th was worth the other three, the rent raised, and the poore{freeholder vexed
7. E.C. Though I knewe the People weare neuer wel{
<if he weare a Councellor of State in England & knewe the Irish never to have beene well used he can not be free whose hand was in the government of the kingdom. the government in this kingdom {
8.It was the Art of Governors in Ireland to keepe the stat{
< the state of England could not be ignorant of the proceedings in Government heere, hauing Soe many, So watchful, and so forward informers. the Lord Chancellor called from his Government to answer complaints. Se if not so in other Governors. Se Sir John Perot concerning the chief Governors of this kingdome.>
fol. 19r
19a
9.These are but fewe instances of greate Provocations, & short of that huge masse of Provocations and indignities laid on the Nobility and gentry & people by that Visier, Bashaw Strafford, who after the first yeare ruled the people with a rodde of iron. objected
<Se the praises given in the Act of subsidie fo & after retracted Se 7 also>
1.That he Promised faire vntil the 6 subsidies graunted, and graunted they weare with the greatest alacrity possible, (quere if not moste by the protestants) which subsidies weare raised to thrice the value of those before.
<quare>
2. The Act of Limitation denied by him <I vnderstand not the intent of this Act>
3.Sanguinary Lawes laboured for: committing those that opposed (the houses sitting) one, a Privy Councelor therefore sequestered from the Councel board. <quere>
3.4. The I.C. exclaimeth of extreame injustice that his Estate was by the King & Parliament given to his sonne & not disposed of to repaire sufferers.
<In this he falleth foule on his Maiesties Honour & Justice, short of an Infidel King etc.>
4.5. His cariage to the E. of St. Albans: Mr Boorke: and at Portumny.
<quere>
5.6. The passages in finding of Conaught (Se the particulars objected).
<quere>
10. Concerning Religion:
The feare of it began anno. 1641
1.When after the granting of the Graces, the Parliament was adjourned from the 7 of August to the 16 of Nov. whereby no bills could passe for those Graces.
<Se the cause of adjorning the Parliament>
2.The Petition against Religion framed heere. & one other petition of the Lords in England.
<The Petition in England did not concerne this Kingdome and that framed in Ireland was but the Act of Privat men: neither do I find it presented in England>
3.The Act in England for disposing the passeing att Lands of the Natives - a great solecisme in State & a reason of the proceedinge of these troubles.
4.the Petitcion of [
11. E.C. why weare not these things mentioned in the Remon{
I.C. these with other particulars of the like nature expunged out of the Examinations, the bearer thereof directed so to do 1. thereby to make the Irish odious 2. to conceale the causes of the insurrection. 3. to acquitt all others from beeing authors of {
<{
fol. 19v
12. Concerning Cruelty
I.C. Protestants pillaged: & men resisting Killed but the report of killing men women & children, or men desiring quarter, or such like inhumanities weare but inventions to drawe large contributions to the warres: by such such to make the Enemy odious is an ordinary course in all warres. No such thing (saith this I.C.) was donne for 6 moneths after the stirrs began; he then beeing heere: what since donne by acts of hostility wheare no quarter given, he can not tell.
<he passeth over what was donne in this kind {
13. No credit to be given to the Remonstrance the Commissioners representing the Crueltys of the Irish in as horrid shapes as can be imagined, worss then they weare: as appeareth by the liberty taken in Commenting on some depositions beyond the sence of the depositions & the reasonable construction of the wordes : taking heare-say for Positive truth: they might as well have sett downe the depositions in wordes.
<the charge is general not instancing in any particular. I referre myselfe heeein to that discourse compared with the annexed Examinations both printed: neither do we take hearesay, for positive truths. leave it to the reader to consider of it as it was presented: neither are all hearesays to be cast off especially being delivered by credible persons and upon oath; But heerein we are taught to beleeve the allegations of this discourse no farther then we shall se Evident Proofe for theme.>
14.The English Soldiers killed many thousands of women & children & that by [
<I doubt not but this is no less false: that either thousands of such weare so killed: or by commaund, or an accompe required of it. yet quere; quere also of this fact of Sir Charles Coote>
15. The Irish before & since these Cruelties sent away of the english, as well soldiers & officers, as women & Children, to sea ports & places of safety.
<some did; but as these are by others blamed for their respect to the English, so are not all to advantage themselves, and hide the’re crueltys by the goodnes of some.
6.They Exceed vs in Charity, Humanity, and Honour
<Se how, in theire whole proceedings>
7.The Lo: Parsons laboured extirpation of the Irish <quero>
1.giving safe Conduct to many Inocent persons, yet vnderhand commaunding that no notice should be taken of his Protection: <quere> and He applauding that fact of Sir Charles Coote making a {
<quere of this fact of Sir Charles Coote>
2.He concealing from the Earl of Ormond & the P{
<quere>
3. refusing armes to the Earle of Ormond and one other Privy Counce{
<quere>
4. giving armes to some Papists thereby to put th{
<quere>
5. In his Letters reproaching the Earl of Ormond as {
<quare>
fol. 20r
18. E.C.what hearts have theis monsters to kill the Inocent and such as have no Power to hu rt resist and that not only when the sworde was drawen, or that women & children perished by casualty of warre fire, or fury, but in cold blood to kill harmeless babes & Poore women is inhumane.
<See that before in number. 12.etc>
17.The danger is threatned of calling in forraigne Forces into this Kingdom, if theire desires be not graunted & they forced thereunto
<they speake theire thoughts on this>
18. I.C. It may be another Cause of theire taking armes to mainetaine togeather with theire owne interest his Maiestie rights & Prerogatives.
<obserue that this is but a cause by the way. how likely these are to maintaine the Kings prerogative was invaded by Others who themselves go [ ] heere - beyond all precedents for Copying Commissions soe of Oyer &c makeing lawes &c.
fol. 20v
fol. 20ar
fol. 20av
Heades of the discourse of the 2 Councelors of State concerning the affaires of Ireland Printed at Kilkenny Decemd: 10: 1641
5 gr
1 Oyer & [
2. please crowne [
3 Petty mactors for Equity by Com [
2 wiles 1 multiplicity of busines occasioning references 2. greate [
if the said grand temple complicit the [
6. gr. lawyers
His Maiesties directions for [